Re: Russian unicorns

In Response To: Re: Russian unicorns ()

I agree - why should Russian gunnery to be more inacurate than other nations - a very one sided view.

Unfortunatly we had some very good Russian collgeagues on this bord and on TMP who dropped out - to our loss, due to too much personal attack on them.

I pasted and saved some information which might be of interest :

Let us start with the 12-pounder, then go to the others.

Russian 12-pounder short barral

dia of the bore 120,9 mm, length overall 13 calibres

weight of the ball 5,78 kg, of the charge 1,03 kg, of the round 6,81 kg

total weight of the pièce, the front/limber and 12 carried rounds 1486 kg, per each of 6 horse 248 kg

total weight of the usual 3 caissons and 120 carried rounds 2477 kg, per each of 9 horse 275 kg

Russian 12-pounder long barral

dia of the bore 120,9 mm, length overall 16 calibres

weight of the ball 5,78 kg, of the charge 1,65 kg, of the round 7,43 kg

total weight of the pièce, the front/limber and 12 carried rounds 1849 kg, per each of 6 horse 308 kg

total weight of the usual 3 caissons and 120 carried rounds 2539 kg, per each of 9 horse 282 kg

French 12-pounder

dia of the bore 121,3 mm, length overall 18 calibres

weight of the ball 6,07 kg, of the charge 1,86 kg, of the round 9,23 kg

total weight of the pièce, the front/limber and 9 carried rounds 1981 kg, per each of 6 horse 330 kg

total weight of the 2 caissons and 144 carried rounds 2411 kg, per each of 8 horse 301 kg

Some of my ideas:

1. There is one more Russian horse (15 vice 14), but he is with the systeme of caissons, not the pièce.

2. As @Kevin F Kiley will say, 1 caisson was often empty (going to and from the parc). If so, Russians have 92 rounds with the pièce and French have 81.

3. Russians did think that 250 to 275 kg = max. load for sustained trotting of an horse, and 300 to 325 kg = max. possible trotting, but wil kill an horse if sustained (in a day, or some times over many days). This was a good reason for the 12-pounder short barral. Russian will say that one cannot really trot the French 12-pounder pièce, other than to kill the horses very soon.

4. In comparing to Russian 12-pounder short barral, the horses on the pièce for the Russian 12-pounder long barral are 24% more loaded and the horses on the pièce for the French 12-pounder are 33% more loaded.

4. In comparing to Russian 12-pounder short barral, the horses on the caisson for the Russian 12-pounder long barral are 3% more loaded and the horses on the caisson for the French 12-pounder are 10% more loaded.

From these ideas, one may conclude that Russian systeme was more mobil on the battlefield and did have better endurance and mobility over a campagne, especially for the 12-pounder short barral. Russian systeme requires 7% more horses, but these may last longer and the total horses needed in a campagne might there by be the same or fewer.

- un ami

We continue with the smaller guns :

For a foot artillerie

Russian 6-pounder

dia of the bore 95,5 mm, length overall 17 calibres

weight of the ball 2,89 kg, of the charge 0,83 kg, of the round 3,72 kg

total weight of the pièce, the front/limber and 20 carried rounds 1156 kg, per each of 4 horse 289 kg

total weight of the usual 2 caissons and 154 carried rounds 1486 kg, per each of 6 horse 248 kg

total horses 10

rounds available with one caisson empty 97

French 6-pounder

dia of the bore 99,1 mm, length overall 18 calibres

weight of the ball 2,69 kg, of the charge 1,03 kg, of the round 3,72 kg

total weight of the pièce, the front/limber and 12 carried rounds 1486 kg, per each of 4 horse 372 kg

total weight of the 2 caissons and 280 carried rounds 2312 kg, per each of 8 horse 289 kg

total horses 12

rounds available with one caisson empty 152

French 8-pounder

dia of the bore 105,7 mm, length overall 18 calibres

weight of the ball 4,04 kg, of the charge 1,14 kg, of the round 5,18 kg

total weight of the pièce, the front/limber and 12 carried rounds 1817 kg, per each of 4 horse 454 kg

total weight of the 2 caissons and 184 carried rounds 2411 kg, per each of 8 horse 301 kg

total horses 12

rounds available with one caisson empty 104

For an horse artillerie

Russian 6-pounder

dia of the bore 95,5 mm, length overall 17 calibres

weight of the ball 2,89 kg, of the charge 0,83 kg, of the round 3,72 kg

total weight of the pièce, the front/limber and 20 carried rounds 1156 kg, per each of 6 horse 193 kg

total weight of the usual 2 caissons and 100 carried rounds 1288 kg, per each of 6 horse 215 kg

total horses 12

rounds available with one caisson empty 70

French 6-pounder

dia of the bore 99,1 mm, length overall 18 calibres

weight of the ball 2,69 kg, of the charge 1,03 kg, of the round 3,72 kg

total weight of the pièce, the front/limber and 12 carried rounds 1486 kg, per each of 6 horse 248 kg

total weight of the 2 caissons and 280 carried rounds 2312 kg, per each of 12 horse 193 kg

total horses 18

rounds available with one caisson empty 152

French 8-pounder

dia of the bore 105,7 mm, length overall 18 calibres

weight of the ball 4,04 kg, of the charge 1,14 kg, of the round 5,18 kg

total weight of the pièce, the front/limber and 12 carried rounds 1817 kg, per each of 6 horse 303 kg

total weight of the 2 caissons and 184 carried rounds 2411 kg, per each of 12 horse 201 kg

total horses 18

rounds available with one caisson empty 104

Some of my ideas:

1. It is in effect the situation that the French systeme uses more horses than the Russian systeme, 33% more in the case of an horse artillerie.

2. The French systeme will provide more rounds near to the pièce, many more in the case of an horse artillerie. This may be can create a better endurance and mobility in a campagne for the French pièces, especially for an horse artillerie.

3. The French 8-pounder pièce drawn by 6 horses for an horse artillerie would lie above the Russian ideal for an horse artillerie, but will likely be OK except in a very long campagne.

4. For the foot artillerie, the French 6-pounder weighs upon each horse 29% more than for the Russian 6-pounder, and in their caissons 17% more. The horses for the French 8-pounder are much more loaded than would be allowed under the Russian systeme, and they could only trot the pièce smaller distances. Still more horses are used (12 vice 10) for the French systeme for either gun, but the overall mobility advantage and advantage of endurance clearly lies with the Russian systeme for the foot artillerie.

- un ami

@Bagration1812

This is all just copy/paste from the Colonel Nilus, a standard work on the artllerie in Russian.

«История материальной части артиллерии»

The relevant parts is on line :

link

You will find the comparisons for Prussians and Austrians aslo, bit I did not make a check of these to see if the numbers are OK. For Frenches (my régiments for "mini's") and Russians, the infos seem very very good.

You see, no magicks ! But I thnak you for your kind comments.

- votre ami

Then for the early years, some detailes of the artillerie of systeme of 1797 year :

Field artillerie in reign of the TSAR Paul.

(Implementing experiments among the Gatchina force and at the arsenaux and artillerie schools from before his reign)

Foot Artillerie

50 compagnies in the Army + 3 compagnies in the Guard

Horse Artillerie

5 horse compagnies in the Army + 1 horse compagnie in the Guard

12 pièces per compagnie in the Army

Foot compagnie : 4x 12-pounder long * + 4x 12-pounder short + 4x 20-pounder unicorn *

Horse compagnie : 6x 6-pounder + 6x 10-pounder unicorns

* team of 8 horses for the pièce and the front/limber, others of 6 horses

guns

12-pounder long – overal length 16,5 calibres – weight of the pièce 167x the round

12-pounder short – overal length 13 calibres – weight of the pièce 97x the round

6-pounder – overal length 17 calibres – weight of the pièce typ. 133x the round

unicorns

20-pounder – overal length 9 & 10 calibres* – weight of the pièce 64x & 70x the round

10-pounder – overal length 9 & 11 calibres* – weight of the pièce 68x & 80x the round

* the lighter pièces actually from the project of the General Möller under the reign of the TSARITSA Catherine, and based on designs of the General Shuvalov era.

carraiges

new designs per the General Euler

caissons

traditional 2-wheel design, pulled in troika by 3 horses

3 caissons per pièce in the foot artillerie

2 caissons per pièce in the horse artillerie

some 4-wheeled also attempted, but not a success

Note – more few older pièces did lurk in the inventory of the Army, especially in the final years of the reign of the TSAR Paul, and there was some variation in the making of these designes, in comparison to the new system of 1805 year.

These must be the one that @Kevin F Kiley does tell to us had to left in abandon in great numbers in the bad weather during the Eylau campagne.

I am sorry , but I can find no mention of such leaving (and the pièces look rather mobile and light), so one remains very eager for more infos about this suject.

- votre ami

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